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This podcast is dedicated to helping attorneys earn more money, get better clients and spend more time with family.
I'm your host, LA Yajnik, founder of law firm Success group smart business guidance for small law firms begins in 321, and it's my pleasure to welcome to Lori Business Advantage.
Jennifer Novak and fire mental law and litigation attorney Jennifer, welcome to the show today.
Thank you so much.
I'm excited to be here.
That's great to see you and 1st off, just share with us what is environmental law exactly.
I've heard lots of different things.
Well, that's a great question.
Because often when we think about Byron mental Law, we're thinking big picture issues.
Polar Bear is starving or climate change really the way I like to describe it is environmental law is all about virtually everything you do over the course of your day.
The regulation of the air you breathe, the water you drank, the chemicals that can go into the products that you use, how your food is grown and and the safety levels, so much of what we do in life is governed by science and by environmental laws to ensure that we're protecting people and we're protecting our resources.
So it's a pretty broad category.
Terms of all the things that touches you can.
Environmental law specifically is helping to navigate that rooms from a policy position and then also trying to make it all make sense in a real world business type situation.
So who is a like a typical client of yours?
Not obviously not divulging your names, but how would you describe your typical plan?
Our clients tend to fall into three categories, so there are the businesses that are subject to environmental rules and regulations who have to comply with how they operate, how they handle their chemicals, how they but transport things in a way that minimizes any accidents and ensures that they're detailing all the things that are going on with their business.
The second category are people who either own properties or they're looking to get into a real property transaction.
And what do you do if it turns out that that property might have contaminated another property or itself might have some problems?
What are the legal liabilities that arise from that?
The costs of fixing it and then the third category is that actually sometimes we do work with environmental nonprofits.
They're seeking to enforce the laws, and if we feel that a business has behaved particularly badly, it's not just that they don't know what the rules are, but they are openly flaunting them.
Then yes, sometimes just to keep the system honest, we may actually try to force against them to hold them accountable for their actions.
Not it.
Wow, that's those are three enormous pieces, potential areas where you get into this.
So almost midway through my career I had the chance to go work for the California Department of Justice Office of the Attorney General, which serves as the basically the outside law firm for the California State agencies.
And my clients were everyone view from Cali, PA to our water boards to our Air Resources Board to Cal Fire and the various resources agencies that are tasked with balancing the economy and the needs of the people with protection of our resources.
And it got involved in environmental law that way.
Truthfully, as important as it is, I I hadn't been looking to go and fight the good fight from an environmental perspective.
I just loved being a lawyer, helping people and solving problems.
No, Brian, I fell into this over 20 years ago and it's fascinating.
So I've stuck with it and then what made you decide to start your own practice?
You know, I got to a point in my career where I thought if I stayed in the government, I ran the risk of only being a government lawyer for the rest of my life.
And I was in my 30s and I felt like I still had room to give.
Still wanted to challenge myself a bit.
The opportunity came up to go into business and help a friend who is starting a law firm and then I'll ultimately that led to my own decision to give it a try myself to try to create the perfect law firm based on everything I had seen over the course of my lifetime and the lessons learned from friends and family and my own experiences.
Love that, love that I love the fact that you're trying to create your perfect law firm.
You we're just trying to get by and survive, but you clearly had something in mind that you were trying to build.
What were some of the the top challenges that you had to overcome to get to where you are now once you started your confirming?
No, that's a great question.
So they don't train you how to run a business, but they train you how to be a lawyer and some would argue they may not even do that well.
But it was hard to go from not having any entrepreneurial experience, not having entrepreneurs in my background or family, and understand the ways that you have to have such a different mindset as a business owner, taking risks and not always having the perfect answer and still having to act.
Where is the Law?
We're always so conservative.
We're always thinking worst case scenario and we want everything to be just perfect.
So that was one big challenge was understanding the mindset.
You have to have the second is that you know if you've never had to negotiate with people over money and talk to clients who may or may not have a lot of it but still need your help.
How those conversations go and being willing to understand your own value and the value you're adding to someone else's life.
And then conveying that to them in a way that doesn't make this seem like a cold, heartless transaction.
And I think that's the knock that so many people have on lawyers, as if we're greedy and we're only about the money when you're often, we're really just trying to help people.
But money is just the way we earn our living.
So those were two big challenges.
Awesome.
Yeah.
And those are things that clearly you've you've sorted out the entrepreneur mindset.
I saw your website has some has lots of videos, so you're exploring that Ave which is terrific and you're you're hearing your practice is thriving.
So clearly you've gotten past that how to manage those clients as challenging clients.
So things are going.
Things are going pretty well from a marketing perspective.
Tell me about you know how you kind of explained 1 environmental law is to other attorneys and how easy you found it to market your services.
It's interesting because the sales part of my practice is really the easiest part, because people tend to just come to me when they're in trouble.
They don't really have a choice to a little bit like being arrested for a crime.
If you get an order saying, hey, we think you've contaminated a property, we'll create a harm.
You don't have a choice, but you need a lawyer.
The trick really has been to do exactly what you're suggesting, which is to explain to people what environmental log is, why people need to be thinking about it, why it's good business to have some foresight, how we can better serve our clients as attorneys.
Overall, if we understand where the consequences might be of taking action or inaction today, so a lot of the marketing that you're referencing on our website really is about trying to provide that educational component.
Trying to explain to people you can't just walk into a real estate transaction for example, and assume that if you write in as is, when you're selling a property, it means you get to walk away from any problems that property might have.
It means don't just assume that if you're a criminal defense attorney and you want a client to plead no contest that there may not be a consequence decades later when the state of California or any other Regulatory agency comes knocking on that clients door and says, Ohh, what a lovely admission you've made now.
Now we're here to impose civil penalties and demand things of you.
So first of all, it's something that a lot of lawyers don't do and aren't comfortable with.
Obviously you work with people who are willing to take that leap and to to risk putting their face in their name and their message out there.
I found that I have to do it just in order to let people know, hey, environmental law is a real thing.
It's very important it's impacting our businesses and real life people and here's why you need to know about it.
In addition to the usual rounds through bar associations and trying to, if we're trying to reach the lawyers that way as well and where do you find that you get most of your clients, is it from referrals from other attorneys or other market?
Great question.
So a fair amount of our work actually comes from environmental consultants.
They're the ones who often get called in to look at a situation, and some of them are sophisticated enough to know, wait a second, this could end up becoming problematic.
So we'd better at least get a lawyer's perspective on this.
Another portion is from other attorneys who recognize that there may be a situation that is out of their comfort zone and they they need our feedback to come in and just be a little plug in piece to their overall work with a client.
And then more recently, especially post COVID, when the real estate market was going bananas, a lot of mortgage brokers, real estate attorneys, real estate agents calling us in those circumstances got it.
And that I didn't hear our attorneys across the country.
So what are some signs that they would run into some situations they would run into where they really should, you know, pick up the phone and give you a call rather than trying to do it themselves.
So you're a great example is if you work at all with a business that is in an industry where they may be subject to environmental regulations and some of these are obvious like a gas station, car dealership, even things like busing companies from wineries, they they are all subject to these compliance rules.
And doing that, those exist for a client means the difference between potentially huge liability down the road or being able to a comply and B narrow the scope of exposure that your client may have down the road.
And let me just give you a quick example.
Just the other day, someone was a little shocked when I explained that I love talking to probate attorneys because within that portfolio of family may have might be a business or might be a piece of property that is actually a liability, not an asset.
So it's important to identify what that is.
For example, if a dry cleaner used to operate, that's pretty try to segregate that out in advance and limit the liabilities.
Or you're going to purchase a property.
Try to keep it separate from other assets or at the very least, if you're paying taxes on things.
If you're trying to figure out who's gonna inherit what and understanding the true nature of that business or property could mean a world of difference later on, download it.
Wow, that's crazy.
So everything from like dry cleaners to fueling stations, to mining to probably, you know, manufacturing, so working with machinery, there's oils and have apples and all of that.
There's environmental impacts.
All of those things correct, and those are all clients of ours.
Those industries.
Thank you.
What does a typical engagement you know, a preventative one?
Obviously not.
Not a reactive one, but what does a typical what the client expect if they were to work?
If Donna preventative basis, so depending on the kinds of regulations they're subject to, some of our clients come to us and just simply ask us to, for example, if they're doing develop, looking at their geotech reports, letting them know if we see that there's a problem nearby explaining to them, if we look at the reports and we say actually this is pretty good compared to everything else we see and making sure they understand you know the worst case scenario, but also kind of laying odds on their particular situation.
We have other situations where you know they're subject to reporting and wondering, and they're gonna be putting information out in a very public way and we can look at their situation.
We could advise them maybe on better practices within their business so that when the information is out there to the public, aliens less likely to attract attention or questions and ensuring that the main understand the food around the buildings or something.
Look at me.
Where is the buttons changed as a lot there.
And that's just it.
The very, very high level.
So as you're looking to grow your firm, Jennifer, what are some of the the key growth challenges that you're doing?
Well, first of all, it's a, it's a tough market right now to find lawyers who have a lot of experience and in any field, especially ones that are a little more beach.
And so, you know, you're very familiar with your listeners, are very familiar with that cycle of.
You don't wanna go and start hiring a whole bunch of very experienced people and then not have the work to fill it at the same time you're trying to mark it in a way that you have that capacity to fill it.
So that's always just an ongoing debate, but I think we all have internally the second is again, it's just the messaging is ensuring people understand because it's not reactive, but there needs to be more of a foresight element.
There needs to be more education.
There needs to be more of that feeling that if you invest just a few hours longer time up front, you truly could save 10s of thousands, hundreds of thousands, potentially millions of dollars down the road, and for lawyers, we really need to get out of our silence and we need to be thinking about the fact that the advice we give our clients really could be of a higher quality and of more service to them.
If we're making them aware of issues that they may not be thinking about, and so, for example, in that probate situation I mentioned, wow, think of what a hero that probate attorney would be if they caught that Grandpa had a manufacturing company that's now being passed on to the kids and asking them some questions about it.
Simply saying, you know, you might just wanna talk to somebody.
About what?
The potential future of that business looks like before we get too far in this plan and truly that would be a question that most probate attorneys wouldn't have been asking.
And this particular one can show off how smart they are because they caught a potential problem.
Yeah.
And they're doing a great service for their clients too, which makes them, I'm sure, feel pretty good.
But you know you're you're absolutely right.
What I found is most attorneys are there to do legal work and help their clients, you know, the the money piece is very much an after effect and an afterthought.
Sometimes way too much of an afterthought, like just tell me I shouldn't be thinking that way.
Exactly. Exactly.
So I think that makes a lot of sense and the challenge I have is if we run into quickly in this kind of a thing funny proactive basis, it's similar to actually employment law and that no a lot of employment law firms try and you know help their clients prevent getting sued.
Same thing with business and a lot of corporate introduction.
Brian set things up to the clients and don't get into don't get into litigation lawsuits in the 1st place.
The challenge with those things it's it's finding the really the right client because usually clients, if they wanna hire an attorney, there's some impetus for them to do that.
They're either, you know, looking at a really good opportunity, like selling or acquiring or something.
There's some kind of opportunity or there's some kind of pain, and oftentimes it's that, you know that letter you were mentioning.
Boom, now you need to call somebody.
You need to get legal counsel.
You don't have a recourse, but for what you're trying to do, which is just preventative aspect, there's not much pain.
Not any right now, and the benefits are sort of the opportunity there is, yeah, maybe it farther.
Brookline to figure out.
So as a result, there's just not much incentive for them to take time out of their busy day and tribute capital towards this kind of a thing.
So it really is a risk reduction exercise, right?
That's why we would do that.
And So what are some of the ways that you and this is advice for the other attorneys that are trying to do this kind of thing?
What are some of the things that that you found to be successful, Jennifer, in getting clients to say, yes, I think I need to look at reducing my risk and it's worth it to me do that.
I like to tell a lot of horror stories, and it's funny because the people who do come to me in those situations where they wanted reduce risk have been burned in the past, so they've learned from their mistake.
They don't wanna repeat it, and now they're bringing in an environmental attorney early into their process where really the legal bills aren't gonna be that much because it's gonna be driven by the science, by consultants or by playing a wait and see game.
They just want somebody on their bench they can turn to with the question and that need arises.
And so being able to share those stories, being able to come here, you know, and and preach a little bit to, you know, various people through podcasts or through Bar Association events means that maybe I can get a few more people to be thinking about it.
And for sure, we're getting more calls from brokers, from attorneys who, even if it's not quite an environmental issue, truly or even if it's not something I do, I'm so appreciative of the fact that they've listened to me and they are thinking about whether or not there's an environmental issue that one of their clients needs to be considering.
So as I expand my network to have experts in other fields that I can turn to with questions, I appreciate the fact that they were doing the same thing and asking OK, we did not know that I'm a little paranoid about what could happen.
Maybe I need to find out is there an environmental issue or not?
Yeah, I love your point about war stories.
Turning entrepreneurs, as you're listening to this, you know, just so you know, stories sell, whether you're litigation for transaction attorney stories sell.
And it may seem like you know, if you're really averse to marketing, you may feel like ohh I'm.
I'm you know, this is a scare tactic that I'm throwing out there or something like that.
It's not educating your client on what can happen because it's a war story.
It's something that you've been involved with, so it's true.
Orders are not gonna dollars.
These kinds of details, so it's honest, it's ethical.
You're being responsible for your client and these are incredibly powerful things to build trust and to build credibility with your client.
And to get them to move and say, yeah, I I now get it.
Like I'm having a visceral reaction to the story.
I I I need to reduce my risk and I need to invest a little bit now because it's it's like insurance and it's totally worth it to me to do that.
So remember the story selling if you don't have a war story that truly comfortable telling, pick one.
Just start with one.
Rehearse it.
Practice it.
Get it down, Jennifer.
What?
What tips do you have when you, in terms of telling war stories that attorneys could could should consider?
Well, first of all, I mean the truth can sometimes be the most powerful method of communication.
And so I do have a few situations where I met somebody fully expected a lawyer joke to come out of their mouth, and instead they almost hung their heads in shame and said, well, I really confuse to last year or however long ago and conveying it as it actually happened, that actual conversation, I think helps demonstrate just the human element of it and the fact that these are just people.
These are not terrible polluter, you know, when we think of you, big corporations, these are just ordinary people with ordinary businesses.
And let me tell you the story about.
So from my perspective, it's not just that as I've lived this talk to people, I get the more stories from people that representing.
It's also being open to hearing other people's experiences.
I will sometimes take a business owner out to lunch and say I'm not here to sell you anything.
I just wanna learn more about your industry.
I just wanna learn more about what kind of challenges you've faced and if you think you've got it all made and you have no problems, I'd love to hear how you got to that point because it's important for me to keep educating myself.
And so it doesn't necessarily have to be something you've helped somebody with.
It can be a situation where you're just collecting information and sharing that with the with the world and I I find that it's created some great topics for the videos that I have on YouTube.
It's it made it very easy to answer real world questions that people have, because if their guard comes down and they don't feel like the lawyers out there wanting something from them, they're more willing to actually ask those kinds of questions like, hey, how do I know if my consultants doing a good job or not and you can help them in that way too?
Love that and I love the fact that building trust is so integral to what you do, and you're doing that at every step in the process.
That's awesome.
So Jennifer, Congrats in the front of you built and what are some of the things you're looking forward to the next year or so?
Well, I am in California and California's constantly reexamining its environmental regulations.
So we do have a few things coming down like where businesses that were not previously subject to certain federal regulations are gonna get pulled into that fold and it's gonna get pretty ugly.
So looking forward to seeing where the state government lands with it.
And then there's gonna end up being a fight over whether or not it's fair, whether or not it's achievable, whether or not people are being given enough time to comply.
And this is especially true in the LA area, but that's gonna be the first area hit, and it's gonna end up spreading nationwide.
So very much looking forward to see where we end up with this.
Got it.
That sounds sounds really interesting in intense, so I'm glad to hear that you're you're gonna be involved in that.
Jennifer, if people wanna connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
We'd love for them to come to our website, which is www.jfforfranknovaklaw.com, and they can get to know our personalities.
They can see our educational videos, and there's also a contact US function where they can reach out to us and we do free 15 minute discovery calls.
People just want to figure out, hey, do I even need to think about this or be an environmental lawyer and see what's what?
Awesome, Jennifer.
Thank you so much for being on lawyer business advantage today.
Thank you.
I really appreciate it and I appreciate everything that you do.
If that's a wrap for this episode of the lawyer Business Advantage Podcast, One thing that would really help both us and other new potential listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a comment in iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you tune in to listen.
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My name is Alec Yajnik.
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