Speakers
[00:00:00] Introduction
Daisy Wanless:
Hello and welcome to Deep Dive with Daisy, where we bring together experts from across the environmental field to talk about challenges, solutions, and stories that shape the way we protect our communities and natural resources. I’m Daisy Wanless. I work for McAllister Geoscience, an environmental consulting firm serving the West Coast and beyond.
Today, I am thrilled to be joined by Jennifer Novak, an accomplished environmental lawyer who has spent her career helping clients navigate complex environmental regulations and protecting themselves from costly pitfalls. Jen, thank you for joining us today. Before we dive in, could you tell us a little bit about your background and the kind of work that you do?
[00:01:00] Background & Career Path
Jennifer Novak:
Sure. I’ve been a lawyer for almost 30 years, and I didn’t originally intend to go into environmental law. When I was in law school, I thought I would do something in the litigation world. I started out at a large law firm where I was doing business disputes, insurance defense, and a little bit of everything.
Then, about five years into my practice, I was hired by the California Attorney General’s Office. I went into the Environmental Law Section, and that was a real turning point. I worked for 12 years representing agencies like the State Water Board, the Regional Water Quality Control Boards, and other state agencies that deal with environmental issues. That gave me a really good foundation in understanding how the government regulates, how agencies think, and how the enforcement side of things works.
About 12 years ago, I moved into private practice and opened my own firm. Now I represent what we call the “regulated community” — businesses, property owners, developers, and sometimes individuals — who find themselves subject to these regulations. We also occasionally represent environmental groups, but the bulk of our work is helping businesses, landowners, and developers understand what the government expects of them and, when necessary, defend them if they’re accused of not complying.
[00:03:40] Daisy Responds
Daisy Wanless:
Wow. Your background is so incredible and inspiring. You’ve been doing this for such a long time, and it’s clear that you’re passionate about the work.
Jennifer Novak:
I wasn’t sure we’d make it this far, but I really do love what we do. I’ve got a great team, and we have great clients. That makes all the difference.
[00:04:10] What Makes Environmental Law Different?
Daisy Wanless:
Let’s go ahead and jump into our first topic. What makes environmental law different from other areas of law?
Jennifer Novak:
Environmental law is different because it’s everywhere. Almost everything we do is regulated in some way, from how businesses operate to how properties are bought and sold. Unlike many areas of law, where you might be dealing with contracts or disputes between two parties, environmental law is often about the intersection of science, policy, and law.
One of the biggest differences is that there isn’t always a lot of case law to rely on. We can’t just go to the library, look up a precedent, and say, “This is how the court ruled.” A lot of times, what we’re working with is agency discretion. Regulators have authority to interpret and enforce the laws, and we’re left trying to understand what their expectations are. That means we have to pay close attention to agency guidance, industry practice, and sometimes even what colleagues are seeing in their cases.
Another big difference is the science. Environmental law is very science-driven. You have to understand sampling, testing, and technical reports in order to effectively represent your client. You can’t just focus on the statutes.
And finally, there’s strict liability. In a lot of environmental statutes, it doesn’t matter if you meant to cause a problem or not. If a release happened on your property, you may be liable. That can feel really unfair to clients who didn’t do anything wrong but still have to deal with the consequences.
[00:09:00] Working with Consultants & Proof Burden
Daisy Wanless:
That makes sense. It’s completely the opposite in consulting. We’re often tasked with proving a site is clean, which can take multiple assessments and still be expensive and inconclusive.
Jennifer Novak:
Exactly. And when we’re working with consultants, our job is to help balance that evidence with what the law requires and with our clients’ expectations. Sometimes clients want certainty — they want us to say definitively that something is clean or not clean — but the science doesn’t always give us that. We have to build a case that shows why our interpretation is valid and why our client shouldn’t be penalized.
Daisy Wanless:
I imagine a lot of your job is researching and trying to reconcile conflicting agency expectations. I’ve seen cases where two different water boards interpret the same rules differently.
Jennifer Novak:
Yes, that happens a lot. Agencies have different staff and different priorities, and sometimes we’ll see contradictory decisions. That makes it hard for businesses who just want to do the right thing.
[00:10:50] Current Client Work & Trends
Daisy Wanless:
What are you helping clients with most right now? And are you seeing or anticipating anything new, like PFAS?
Jennifer Novak:
People think environmental law is niche, but we deal with a wide range of issues. Lately, a big part of our work is property transactions. Since COVID, a lot of people are buying and selling property, and environmental concerns come up in those deals.
We also do a lot with stormwater permitting and compliance. That’s been a big area of enforcement lately. We’re seeing more citizen suits, where nonprofits sue companies over alleged violations, and more aggressive agency enforcement as well.
Litigation is definitely picking up. Environmental cleanup cases are expensive, and liability can extend far back in time. You may be dealing with contamination from decades ago. Even if you didn’t cause it, you can still be held responsible.
As for emerging issues, PFAS is a huge one. It’s in everything — cookware, clothing, cosmetics. Businesses are worried about how to manage something so widespread. We’re also seeing attention on plastics and microplastics. These are issues that will only grow in importance.
Daisy Wanless:
I see that too. We get calls from clients who thought they were in compliance but then get cited based on citizen complaints. It’s hard when you’re allowed to discharge under a permit but still get sued.
Jennifer Novak:
Right. Law school teaches us to look for the right answer, but in environmental law, there isn’t always one. You can do everything “right” and still get in trouble. PFAS is a good example — it’s so pervasive that almost every business is affected. Companies have to be mindful and proactive, even if they don’t think of themselves as polluters.
[00:18:30] Regulation Across Industries
Daisy Wanless:
Makeup is a good example. People don’t think of cosmetics as hazardous, but makeup stores generate regulated waste.
Jennifer Novak:
Exactly. We’ve worked with big box retailers and small businesses that got cited because they didn’t dispose of returned products or expired goods properly. During COVID, even hand sanitizer became a problem. Businesses had pallets of expired sanitizer and didn’t know what to do with it.
That’s why I like representing the regulated community. These are good people trying to run their businesses. Our job is to help them navigate the rules. Our motto is, “We help good people in bad situations.”
[00:21:00] Property Transactions & Due Diligence
Jennifer Novak:
Property transactions are another area where we see issues. Due diligence is critical. Buyers need to know what they’re getting into, because if there’s contamination, they may inherit liability.
Daisy Wanless:
You can’t do that kind of work in a week. You need time to investigate properly.
Jennifer Novak:
Exactly. We had a client who was under pressure to close quickly. We insisted on environmental testing, and the results showed a serious issue. The client walked away, and while they lost the deal, they avoided a multimillion-dollar cleanup. That was a win.
[00:23:30] Compliance & Enforcement Gaps
Jennifer Novak:
Another problem is when clients rely on the wrong people. We’ve seen Phase I assessments that missed obvious issues, like old addresses or historic uses of a property. We’ve also seen businesses fail to comply with stormwater permits because no one explained the requirements.
When enforcement happens, it can be expensive. Penalties add up quickly, and small businesses can be hit hard. We try to negotiate and find solutions, but prevention is always better. If clients come to us early, we can help them avoid those headaches.
Daisy Wanless:
Yes, and enforcement can even affect licensing. A business with a history of violations may have trouble getting permits in the future.
Jennifer Novak:
Exactly. These things have long-term consequences.
[00:26:00] Closing & Resources
Daisy Wanless:
Thank you, Jennifer. This has been such a valuable conversation. Before we wrap up, where can people find you?
Jennifer Novak:
We serve all of California but are based in Los Angeles. Our website is www.jfnovaklaw.com. We offer free 15-minute discovery calls. If we can’t help, we’ll connect you with someone who can. We’re a small firm, but we handle litigation and compliance across the state.
Daisy Wanless:
That’s wonderful. And for listeners, McAllister Geoscience is here to help with site assessments, compliance sampling, and other consulting services. You can find us at www.dirtyproperty.com.
Jennifer Novak:
Thank you so much for having me.
Daisy Wanless:
Thank you, Jennifer, and thank you to everyone listening. We’ll be back soon with another Deep Dive with Daisy. Until next time, take care.